So this guy at my new job I started a couple months ago asked me out. We’re only one year apart in age (mid-twenties), pretty well matched appearance-wise, and we’d had a couple of fun non-work-related conversations. I told him thanks, he seems really nice, but I just don’t think we’re a match. He asked why, and I pointed out how he’s always talking about his dance classes. He goes to about three different ones, with different stupid names like rumppumpa and boinkata. I’m introverted (not shy or antisocial, just someone whose batteries are drained rather than charged up by crowds and socializing), bookish, uptight, and utterly despise dancing, and most of the music and venues associated with dancing. I’m not against physical exercise but my preferred forms are horseback riding, swimming, hiking, and hopefully someday walking through European cities full of old churches and museums. And while I don’t think partners need to share every hobby, I wouldn’t want to date a guy who’s always whirling around with other women in his arms. I imagine if, instead of a horse, I went around jump courses piggyback on a bunch of big, muscular men, some guys might not want to date me either.
To my surprise, he then said he doesn’t actually like dancing! When he first started, he totally hated it. He’s gotten less self-conscious as he’s learned to suck less at it, but still doesn’t enjoy it. He’s also introverted and has similar struggles with being peopled out just from work and big group activities as I do. He’s really only doing it to try to meet women and get dates. But as soon as he finds a committed girlfriend, he doesn’t plan to go anymore. I told him I’m sorry, but I think it’s incredibly dishonest to pretend to be that into something he isn’t. And if he gets with a woman who likes dancing, he’d better be okay with her dancing with all kinds of other guys, because he shouldn’t expect her to stop, too, just because they’re dating.
So then he said (paraphrasing): “You say you don’t like that I like dancing. Then you say you don’t like that I DON’T like dancing. Just admit the real reason is because I’m short and ugly.” I said that wasn’t it at all, and I’m done with this conversation. The truth is, I find him extremely cute. I don’t care about height, I’m only 5’3” and he’s at least taller than me, and he’s my type, which is very much not “giant he-man musclehead.” I like his intellect, I like his politics. It’s just this thing of trying to be this suave, dance-happy player when that’s not who you really are that’s completely off-putting to me. Of course, I wouldn’t be interested if that was who he really was either. But this whole thing of a guy I might otherwise like, trying to act like someone I don’t, feels bad on a whole new level. I don’t know how much sense that makes. Maybe I feel like in trying to appeal to women who are so different from me, even when appealing to me would come more naturally to him, he’s almost rejected me ahead of time? Like saying I’m weird = wrong = not good enough, these dancy women are normal = what men (even non-dancy men) really want = better than me. Which is a message I’ve had to resist ever since I was a weird young girl who liked horses and old art more than pop stars and makeup influencers.
Ever since then, though, he’s been really sweet to me. The very next day he apologized for the way that conversation went, even though I was just as rude at the end. He even gave me a gorgeous coffee table book on the Louvre, because I’d mentioned wanting to go there. How big an idiot would I be to ask him out on a dance-free museum date?
Could This Be Louvre?
This is one of those times where I feel like the biggest problem is that everyone involved realized they should’ve stopped talking about two to five sentences before they actually did and now they’re stuck in damage control mode. And then it keeps happening.
I realize that this feels like a fairly open and shut case of “just ask him out already”, but there’re some dynamics going on in the background that I think need to be examined, because I get the feeling that they’re going to come up again for the both of you.
So here’s the thing: what he’s doing at the dance classes is, honestly, kind of dumb. Not taking dance classes in general, but taking them just to get dates and meet women, especially since he actively dislikes the classes. That’s counterproductive as hell, for a number of reasons. For one, he’s doing something he dislikes and that’s going to come across to anyone he’s talking to or interacting with at the classes. So he’s going to be coming to this with a pretty significant disadvantage to start. And the women he’s going to meet there are people who like dancing, which is just stacking disadvantage on top of disadvantage.
For another: women already hate it when guys think that they can treat classes like a sex ATM, which is more or less his entire plan. But his entire plan hinges on apparently being so charming or suave that the woman he finally convinces to go out with him will be willing to forgive that he doesn’t actually like dancing and was just going to try to get a girlfriend. Of course, the slight flaw in this plan is that if he had that level of charisma, he wouldn’t be doing this.
Then there’s the fact that he’s fallen into the trap of trying to be someone he thinks he should be, instead of leaning into who he actually is. This is, admittedly, as much about being relatively young and swimming in a sea of shitty dudes pushing their ideal man as what women want. Which would be something he could theoretically grow out of if he also didn’t seem to be carrying a chip on his shoulder that’s grown so dense that it collapsed into a singularity and sucked his brain out of his ear.
Dude isn’t starting off by covering himself in glory is what I’m saying.
Now that having been said, it sounds like you were coming in pretty hot too. I think all that needed to be said was “you’re into this thing that I’m just not that into, and it seems like it takes up a lot of your time, so maybe we’re just not a good fit.” Instead it sounds like you told him that his hobbies are stupid.
I can understand the impulse of wanting to not be associated with the group that you don’t fit in and that tacitly (or explicitly) rejects you for not conforming. But, speaking from experience as someone who did the classic “nerd” thing of “all the stuff I don’t like is stupid and pointless and the people who were into it weren’t nearly as classy or interesting as me…” in high-school and college, it’s a little too easy to turn “I’m not like them” into just reflexive opposition that risks becoming almost pointlessly, even aggressively hostile.
Life gets a hell of a lot easier if you take more of a “hey, glad that you dig the things you dig, it just isn’t for me” instead of acting like you’re above it all. Otherwise you run the risk of blowing something up before it even has a chance to begin.
Y’know… like this whole situation.
It’s not great to be actively dismissive about something another person is investing a lot of time and effort into. Particularly to their face. Sure, it turns out that he doesn’t actually like it, but you didn’t know that at the time. I get that you dislike dancing, dance music and so on, but there’s a dismissive and eye-rolling manner to the way you’re conveying your side of the story and that’s not helping you because things escalated with calling him dishonest and telling him that he’s going to have to get used to watching dudes rub up on his girlfriend.
I can’t say I’m surprised that he blew up the way that he did. Yeah, he’s clearly got some insecurities going on – what 20-something doesn’t? But even under the best of circumstances, meeting him with that sort of energy tends to put people on the defensive. Especially when they’ve just been turned down by someone who they just asked out on a date. It may not have been your intent, but I’m not sure I entirely blame the guy for feeling like he just got punched in the very areas he’s insecure about.
At the same time… it sounds like you’re feeling stung too. I’m wondering if part of your reaction is because you were feeling rejected too, and that was gnawing at you. There’s a tendency people have – something that crops up across genders, sexualities, political spectrums, all of it – to assign people to categories, and feel a sort of parasocial ownership or possessiveness of people who are in “our” category. Seeing someone who is theoretically one of “ours” seeming to show interest in folks who aren’t in our category feels a little like not just rejection but betrayal. You see this in incels and other manosphere types who complain about women wanting to date the hottest men despite not being as hot. Shit, there’s an entire podcast dedicated to shitting on women for thinking that they’re hot enough to “get” a 10.
So I wonder if there was a metaphorical rock in your shoe as you watch this person – someone who theoretically should be a good match for you – seem to be chasing after other people. People who might fit a more restrictive or essentialist mode of gender, one might say.
But here’s the thing: this sense of being “rejected in advance” falls apart when you consider that he asked you out. And he did so before you found out that he was only taking dance lessons to try to meet a girlfriend. That alone should tell you that he considers you, if not his “type”, then someone who he could be interested in. As a general rule, people don’t ask people out on dates if they’re not attracted to them.
I think there’s value in taking a step back and checking to see if you’ve had some insecurities and knee-jerk responses getting in the way of things too.
Now all that having been said, one must give credit where credit is due. This guy coming back to apologize for blowing up at you is a pretty positive sign. That’s a level of emotional intelligence and self-awareness that is, unfortunately, increasingly uncommon among guys his age. The same goes for trying to reach out over interests you have. That suggests to me that maybe he’s not as lost to the slapdick masculinity grifters who keep peddling things like the whole six-foot, six-figure, six-pack bullshit as one might fear.
I think you could do worse than to ask him out to do something casual and see what the two of you have in common. Maybe there’s not enough connective tissue there to make things work. Maybe you’ve got far more overlap than what there seems to be on the surface. There’s no way of knowing unless the two of you go hang out and see.
Just do both of yourselves a favor: try to make sure whether you’re responding to something the other person actually said, or what your mutual anxieties are telling you that the other said.
Good luck.
I’m about to be a freshman in college and to help have money for school I been working my summer job with other students who’re staying for the summer. My girlfriend, “Katia”, is also staying around for the summer, though she’s going to be attending a different school at the start of the fall semester. Katia and I’ve been together for two years now, and they’ve been pretty great.
Lately there’ve been problems, which is why I need your help. A lot of us get together at someone’s house to hang out after work, have some drinks, play some games, pretty low key kickback. Recently, a new guy’s been coming to some of these hang outs. He’s a junior, just got back from a semester abroad in Europe and he’s become the favorite of a lot of the girls I work with. Lately he’s been paying a lot of attention to Katia. I didn’t even notice it at first except a couple of her friends pointed out that he seems to spend a lot of time hanging out with her over everyone else. After they told me, I couldn’t stop seeing it, catching him looking at her all the time when she doesn’t seem to notice.
I even told Katia that he seems to have a crush on her and she just laughed it off. He’s just being nice, she told me. I don’t know if she’s picking up on the vibe he’s giving or not. Katia’s always had a hard time with telling the difference between people being nice or if they’re hitting on her. This has led to problems with guys who’ve insisted that she’s leading them on when she says she hadn’t done any of that.
I can’t point to anything he’s done specifically but it all feels off. Even some of Katia’s friends have said that it feels like he’s making a move. After talking it over with some of my friends, I went over and talked with him, just getting to know you stuff, what’s your major, who do you know here, that sort of thing. I gave him a rundown of who knew everyone else and how, and made a point about how Katia and I’ve been together since high-school, hoping he’d get the hint. I don’t know if he did or not because his behavior with her hasn’t changed.
Am I being crazy here? Is there something else I should do or say if I think he’s trying to steal my girlfriend? Do I even have a chance if this guy’s taller than me and has all these cool stories about travel when Katia and I’ve never even been to Disneyland never mind Milan?
Get Your Hands Off My Girl
Have you considered peeing on Katia’s foot to mark your territory, GYHOMG? It might save you a lot of time and send a clearer signal to other guys.
Look, I’m going to be honest: this is just stupid and it’s teenage drama for drama’s sake. It’s so cliché that there’s a part of me that’d wonder how much of this is a creative writing exercise if I hadn’t witnessed scenes like this go down in person. High-school sweethearts about to go to separate schools, a hot new guy who’s so mature and ‘worldly’, a Greek chorus of people whispering about the impending scandal… it’s basically a Regency novel with fewer frock coats and fluttering fans.
Let’s start with something obvious first: you either trust Katia or you don’t. And I feel like you don’t, because hoo damn, I’m having to side-eye your whole “she never knows when people are flirting with her!” thing. That’s infantilizing and not cool, my guy. It’s also not relevant whether she’s picking up on his intent or not. His intent and her supposed ignorance aren’t going to make a difference because it takes two to tango. It doesn’t matter how hot a dude is or how much he’s flirting with her if Katia doesn’t want to be with him.
Unless you think Katia is such a naïve babe in the woods that she could be tricked into breaking up with you, whether she’s picking up on his flirting – if he even is flirting – doesn’t really matter. It only becomes relevant in as much whether a) it bothers her and b) if she’s already thinking about ending things with you. If she’s happy and committed to your relationship? Then that’s the end of the issue.
This guy’s not going to forcibly change her mind. He’s not Svengali, about to mesmerize your poor, innocent girlfriend. There’s not even any evidence that he’s trying to lure her to being alone with him so he could make a move or “take advantage of” (read: assault) her, never mind convince her to ditch the zero and get with the hero. Hell, we don’t even have any reason to believe that he’s a bad guy. There might be some minor fuckboy vibes coming off him – again, the “upper classman semester abroad glow-up” thing is a cliché for a reason – but so far, the worst he’s done is… talk to your girlfriend.
The evidence you have are some of her friends saying that he’s a bit sus, which isn’t really indicative of anything, and that he’s older and kinda hot. I don’t know her friends, so I can’t tell you if this is some Real Housewives of Off-Campus shit and her friends are messy bitches who live for the drama, if they’re feeling sour grapes because he seems to be into Katia instead of them, or if they’re even any good at accurately picking up on vibes. The fact that they’re saying there’s smoke doesn’t mean that there’s fire. But the suggestion of it seems to be what’s set you off, because you didn’t seem to notice before. Now you’re running off vibes and, let’s be honest, insecurity.
(Also: “yeah, that’s my girlfriend, we’ve been together for years”… yeesh. That’s some “Yeah well keep your Power Gloves off her, pal” level shit…)
And ok look, I get it. There’s some pretty clear worry running in the background – you and your high-school sweetheart are about to go to different schools. There’s an understandable worry that this is going to lead to your breaking up and oh look, here’s this new guy who seems to be giving you the preview of how it’ll inevitably go down. And this isn’t unfounded; most high-school relationships don’t last pass graduation, and the ones that do rarely last past your first year of college. This doesn’t mean that you’ve done anything wrong or that there’s some flaw in your relationship. It’s just an acknowledgement that you’re both simply going to be in such a different place, having different experiences and growing in ways that you couldn’t while you were in high-school, and often that means that the relationship that fit you then isn’t going to fit who you’re becoming.
It’s not guaranteed that you’re going to break up, don’t get me wrong. But the way you’re going about things now isn’t going to prevent it. If anything, acting like a comic book character trying to keep other dudes from talking to his ‘gurl’ is going to accelerate the issue.
Straight talk: so far, this guy isn’t doing anything, and what he is doing is harmless. Katia’s an adult, who’s fully capable of telling a dude to back off or knock it off, and to decide if she’s cool with someone trying to flirt with her – if that’s even what he’s doing. Again, his flirting isn’t going to make a difference if she’s not interested in him. You don’t need to confront the guy unless Katia asks you to.
If he starts causing problems – like the guys who apparently thought Katia was flirting when she wasn’t – that’s one thing. But right now? This is just you getting jealous and territorial over a person who has every right to decide who she does or doesn’t want to talk to. Let this one go, touch some grass and decide if you trust Katia or not. If you do, there’s nothing to worry about. If you don’t… well, you may as well do yourself a favor and end things now instead of letting it escalate into a drama bomb to go off later.
Good luck.
