A book titled Hello Yes Hello: 30 Dialogues, containing conversations between Kathelin
Gray and Ramuntcho Matta about Brion Gysin and William Burroughs, was published by Moloko Plus in 2025, and Ce que Brion m’a dit de Gysin (Marcel le Poney) in 2026.
Your
father was the Chilean surrealist painter Roberto Matta, who knew writers and artists such
as Andre Breton, Joyce Mansour, Max Ernst, and Robert Motherwell. I imagine
your childhood must have been interesting, with many famous artists around you.
What was it like?
Everything
was normal.
It was
“normal” to sleep in a closet with holes in the door to be able to breathe.
It was
“normal” to have a one-room apartment that was the studio of my father during
the day, the dining room in the evening, and the sleeping room of my father at
night.
My mother
was the one to bring the money home.
She was a
designer and a political activist.
She left
the United States because she was accused of being a communist: she created the
first radio station that played African-American music.
Then she arrived in Rome and worked as a dancer in peplums.
Ramuntcho Matta’s mother, Malitte Pope, 1948. Photographer unknown
She was
raised in Rochester, New York, and had a very special neighbour. An old woman who
organised salons. My mother met Marcel
Duchamp, John Cage, and Martha Graham there.
As our
flat was also the studio, it was very common to have visitors like Max Ernst,
Dorothea Tanning, Asger Jorn, Öyvind Fahlström … Henri Michaux…
It was in
Saint Germain des Prés, which was the centre of creativity … because it was a very cheap
area … and it has a garden when you can walk and a lots of cafés … cafés were
the only place with heat…
I remember
that the discussions were always about improving the world and how we could
help…
.jpg) |
Brion Gysin and Ramuntcho Matta, early 1980s. Photographer unknown
It is well
known that you met Brion Gysin when you were a teenager, and then later you did
some musical collaborations and
recordings with him. What were your immediate impressions of Gysin? Was he easy to work
with?
“Work” ?
Well … at
the beginning it was more like being adopted.
It was my
teacher that sent me to him.
I was 15
years old and totally lost.
My teacher
offered me a “deal” … if I went to poetry and philosophy classes and went to
help a friend of his who was dying, he would not tell my parents that I did not
go to school. And if I did well, he would make me pass class every year.
So, every
morning I went to Brion.
Help him to
get dressed sometimes, clean the place.
And then I
would roll a joint and he would go to his desk to write.
After one
hour he would take a break and we would speak about a lot of different things …
literature, science, art, history … and then he would go back to write, and I would
go to buy some food… I would prepare lunch and go to school…
.jpg)
Brion Gysin, early 1980s. Photographer: Ramuntcho Matta
I came back
at tea time (4:20) and almost every day William Burroughs would call and they would
speak for about one hour… (I have no idea how that was possible because at the time
telephone calls were really expensive).
And after
that it was time for visitors…
Always very
interesting people from different fields and parts of the world.
Four Roses bourbon
times two…
After that I
would go home and Brion took a nap.
Some time
later on we met to go to clubs to have fun.
Especially The
Privilege. This was a VIP club under a disco called The Palace. To get in you
had to be creative. It was the place to be…
All the cream of global creativity was gathered there … from
Mick Jagger to Truman Capote.
My teacher
was Maurice Benhamou, and he told me 20 years after that Brion was doing a full
report on the subjects we discussed.
Mythology,
religion, architecture … personal
experiences…
He took the
job very seriously.
.png) |
Brion Gysin, Yann Lecker and Ramuntcho Matta, early 1980s. Photographer unknown
In his
book The Beat Hotel, Barry Miles says your father was a big influence on Gysin’s
visual art. Did your father and Brion ever meet?
In 1977, two years after we met, Brion told me that he knew
my father in New York, just after the
war … and they painted together in my father’s studio … they met again in
Rome in 1963…
Brion did a series of artworks titled ‘Gracias a Matta’ in 1963 … I have one of
them…
The main subject between Brion and my father was Ouspensky, because
my father did work with him…
Did you
know William Burroughs well or only slightly?
Of course.
William very quickly became an uncle to me.
It was
Brion who introduced me to him.
Also John Giorno,
Allen Ginsberg, Ornette Coleman, Steve Lacy…
.jpg) |
Brion Gysin, Tessa Pollitt and Ramuntcho Matta at the Final Academy concert, 1982. Photographer unknown
Another
fascinating person from that era you were friends with was Ira Cohen. I guess
you also met him through Gysin. There is a poem of Ira’s in which he mentions
you, in connection with the suicide of the poet Gherasim Luca.
Well … Ira
was a visitor of Brion… But I really became close to Ira after the passing of
Brion.
He was
living in my place in Paris every time he was town … sometimes for weeks …
We shared
the same passion for magic and initiation processes.
.jpg) |
Brion Gysin and Ira Cohen, early 1980s. Photographer: Ramuntcho Matta
To go back in time a little, you studied music in New York in the late 1970s. You stayed at Laurie Anderson’s studio and met John Cage. What was that like?
Well, it was
not exactly like that.
I had twin
half-brothers.
Batan was
an artist, a very good artist, but he had a problem with schizophrenia and he committed suicide in 1976 … that is when I
met Felix Guattari and discovered la
Borde… That is a mental health clinic. A very special place, not only for “sick” people but for anyone who felt
disappointed by life.
His twin
brother Gordon Matta-Clark was an artist too … and he died of cancer in 1978…
The day after his passing, his best friend called me and said:
“Now that
Gordon is dead, come to New York and I will be your brother.”
That was
Richard Nonas.
So I went
and the friends of Gordon adopted me.
Laurie
Anderson was very friendly and we spent some time in her studio.
I became
close to John Cage and watered his plants.
It was a
great, great time with Robert Raushenberg, Robert Wilson, Dickie Landry,
Richard Peck, Arto Lindsay…
 |
| Watercolour by Ramuntcho Matta |
I was going
to the Third Street Music School.
After two
years I came back to France to go back to Brion and take care of my mother.
And because
I did not want to start a career.
When did
your first music album come out, and how did that happen?
It came out
in 1984. We did a concert with Brion in Paris and after the gig two men came
backstage and said that they really enjoyed what we did.
They asked
me what I would like the most. I said to make a record. One of them asked: “How
much would it cost?”
I said 300
000 francs and one of the guys left.
He came
back 10 minutes later with a paper bag with the money.
A few years
before we had recorded Kick with Don Cherry with the money my father had given me to buy a
car.
What
musical instruments do you play apart from the guitar? I have seen footage of
you playing the mbira – a present from Henri Michaux.
Well, “play”
is a big word.
I fool
around with anything that makes sounds.
Just name
it… I can make a piece with it.
Also
because I have synesthesia … so when I hear a sound, I see shape and colours.
.jpg) |
| Watercolour by Ramuntcho Matta |
You are
a non-mainstream musician – you do not produce pop music. Is it difficult for
non-mainstream musicians to get recognition in France?
It is
impossible to get recognition, but I am not looking for it.
I just want
to be a good human being and have great relationships with friends, animals,
and things.
I did have
a hit song in the 80s so I achieved “success”, but I know it is misunderstood and it is not my cup of tea.
I am not a
fighter; I am lover of life.
You are
also an accomplished visual art, which I suppose is not a surprise considering
your father was an artist. When did you start making art? Did you have any
formal art training?
Well well
well … I spend a lot of time in my father’s studio.
I spent a
lot of time with Gordon and Batan.
I started
to draw when I was 5 or 6, with Saul Steinberg.
 |
| Watercolour by Ramuntcho Matta |
I remember
messing around with Asger Jorn.
I took
drugs with Henri Michaux
and had
great times with Brion over 10 years…
is that
formal training ???
You make
small watercolour paintings every morning, and share them on social media, always accompanied by poems or poetic texts.
Is this daily practice like a form of yoga or meditation for you?
Yes, it is
a meditation in action.
It helps me
train my brain to find a lot of different paths with the infra self.
It is also
a way to humanise the digital and to send “letters” to my friends.
 |
| Watercolour by Ramuntcho Matta |
I started
almost 20 years ago.
You have
also published several books – some of them are books of drawings, but also
texts, such as Bonjour Bonjour, about Burroughs. Can you tell us more about
your books? How many have you had published?
 |
| Published by Moloko Press, 2025 |
I have no
idea.
I am like a
dog.
If you ask
me to do something, I will do my best.
I love to
make records.
I love to
make books.
As you know
because you
are an artist
It is a
very very lonely practice, and nobody asks you to do anything.
So every time
there is an opportunity, I go.
I have made
T-shirts, sound design, scenography for museums, CD-ROMs for children.
Your
visual art has been exhibited in several countries, ranging from Italy to
Argentina. Has there been an exhibition of your art that is a favorite for you?
Well, I love
the time of the conception of an exhibition.
Because my
exhibitions are the traces of an experience that I make specially for the
place.
Most of the
time I create relationships with the people that live in the area … schools,
mental institutions, social networks…
The thing I
like the most is sharing the present with people.
You have
said that through your father you have had links to the surrealists and through
Gysin links to the beats. What are your thoughts about these two groups, in the
year 2025?
I believe
in energy and the power of intention.
The
surrealist group was a reaction to the First World War: saying never again, we
have to create new tools to redefine the future.
The beats were
a reaction against the American way of life.
Now it is
important to invent tools of resistance…
 |
| Published by Marcel le Poney, 2026 |
I know
exactly what the world needs, and I am working on it.
Apart
from your daily watercolours, do you have any projects that you are now busy
with?
Having a
life is a good project.
I am
working on a film about my mother.
I am
working on an installation with the material that Chris Marker gave me before
he died.
I do a lot
of workshops
and I am
working on making my phone ring.
Do you
believe that artists or writers or musicians have a role to play in the world?
If so, what would you say that role is?
My practice
is not working in the art world
I do my art
in neurosciences, education…
I generate
situations.
I believe
the arts are a perfect way in which to expand human capacities to explore the sensitive
universe. My experiences have taught me that a certain level of art is
an activator of a better being.
Art is a
“presence” that expresses the essence of life.
We all need
a good dose of this.
This interview was originally published in The Odd Magazine, in English and in French.
